Jake posted this recently in the Hema Alliance forum, and I thought it might make a good conversation starter considering our recent talk of using steel:

So, I guess I'll start it off, then. We're obviously somewhere in the middle of what Jake is talking about. We wear lots of protection AND we use padded weapons.

I would definitely say, as a whole, we use padded weapons as a substitute for control. We want to "fight harder" and "give it our all," but I think much of the time for most of us (and most of the time for some of us) that just amounts to being able to swing as hard as we possibly can for almost every strike.

Now you guys all know that I love me some hard hits, but the problem that I see with this is that it promotes bad technique. Control isn't just about being able to pull a strike so it doesn't hurt someone. Control is also about being able to pull a strike off and attack another opening or being able to change midway through a strike into a guard or vice versa. Control means faster strikes that aren't telegraphed and keeping your point online for thrusts.

Control is not a camouflage word for "pansy hits." Control is something that's absolutely necessary to master any weapon system, so I feel that we should promote it's use by using a "more dangerous" weapon simulator. I'm not saying jump straight into the steel game, but just take the next step up from paddeds.

Thoughts?

I have wanted this for some time, but quiet wary of the potential problems.

Having experience in Kung-fu and other arts, I understand what control is about. Even with my experience, I can tell you, that I will eventually attack and land a hit that is hard. It will happen by me and other experienced guys. If my opponent has headgear and hockygloves, great! What if the hit lands at his lower rib-cage?

Speaking from old-school, I say lets just start doing it with the most experienced fighters. It could be a side-line thing, during training or whatever. The proper thing/technique/protection will evolve if we give it a chance.

I just don't feel comfy about my gaunts yet. I don't know many others that feel that way either.

All Valid Points. We can prolly get some good ideas from some of this discussion.

I agree with much of it, but allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment to point out the things that need to be avoided when changes are consider in training. My experiences in martial arts have shown me that sometimes these conversations can be the start of nerd-dom (not the good kind)

Care must be taken not to create martial arts "enthusiast" instead of fighters.

i.e. The Karate fighter that says " I can win as long as you chop at me like this". or "I only got beat up because he was swinging wildly with unsophisticated techniques" or whatever.
I'm all for good technique as long as we don't lose sight of whipping ass. Is it a contest of who knows the most moves, or a contest of who got hit a lot?

I cite Sir Adam as a champion of my point, perhaps he spends a little less time sword nerding than me, but as long as he keeps beating me up I think he's doing something right.
(Well actually pretty much everyone has had a chance to beat me up, I don't claim to be a great fighter. However I've been around all sorts of fights long enough to know what they have in common)

As long as those concerns are considered, I'm all for better technique.

WARNING: This is a really long post and it's getting late. I apologize if parts of it don't make sense or seem fragmentary. Please let me know if something doesn't make sense.



I agree 100% that we should be creating fighters and not enthusiasts. I also agree that every fighter should know how to handle "wild" opponents. But there's a big difference between a wild fighter and an ineffective one. I think our main point of disagreement on this particular topic is caused by misunderstanding of subtext. In the example you gave above, the Karate fighter is basically saying, "My [edit]technique[/edit] is mostly ineffective outside of my fighting system." For example:

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Scenario: Karate Guy attempts to use a Karate specific block against an opponent's punch. Then...

At the Dojo: Karate Guy's block succeeds against his opponent's karate specific chop. Karate guy is the victor.

In a bar:: Karate Guy prays that his opponent was trained in karate and that his opponent throws the specific chop that this block protects against. Chances are, Karate Guy eats a punch to the face, loses the vor, and gets his ass kicked. Karate Guy loses.

In a bar:: Karate Guy loses.

In a dark alley:: Karate Guy loses.

In His House Against a Burglar:: Karate Guy loses.

At a Rock Concert:: Karate Guy loses.

On a Mountain:: Karate Guy loses.

In a Volcano:: Karate Guy loses.

Conclusion: While extremely effective in his fight system, Karate guy's technique is otherwise worthless.

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Unfortunately, I think you guys hear, "My technique is mostly ineffective outside of my fighting system," when I say things like, "HEMA only works because you assume your opponent will protect his head." People think I'm just sword-nerding out and making excuses for why my precious historical technique doesn't work in the pit.

But what I'm really saying is, "My techniques are ineffective in the Ordo Fight system," or, more precisely, in a point-based system where the person to land the first hit is unquestionably the "victor" of the round regardless of the circumstances outside of that initial contact. At first glance, that almost seems the same as, "My technique is mostly ineffective outside of my fighting system," but it's not. For example:

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Scenario 1: My opponent kicks me in the stomach half a second before I thrust him in the face with a sword-like object which he makes no attempt to deflect. Then...

In the Ordo pit -- I catch my breath as I return to my corner to fight another round. My opponent is the victor by the rules of the system.

In a medieval battle -- After catching my breath, I wipe my, now dead, opponent's brains from my blade and look for another man to kill. I am the victor

In a dark alley -- I apply a clench and throw a few knees as my opponent reels in pain. Once we get to the ground, I pound on his face until there's just a red stain on the concrete. I wipe my opponent's vitreous humour from the steel point of my umbrella as I walk out of the alley. I am the victor

In a bar room -- Reeling from the kick, I sloppily followup the thrust with two or three more solid strikes to my opponent's head as he grabs his eye socket screaming in pain. After catching my breath, I wipe my opponent's vitreous humour from the end of my pool cue and finish running the table. I am the victor

Conclusion: Stabbing someone in the face right after they kick you isn't going to get you any points in the Pit, but it's damned effective everywhere else.

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Scenario 2: My opponent strikes me in the leg with a sword-like object as I simultaneously strike him in the head with a sword-like object. Then...

In the Ordo pit -- We continue fighting until a "clean" point is scored. There is no victor.

In a medieval battle -- I feel my opponent's sword bite deeply into my thigh to the bone as I watch my opponent's head explode into a red mist. Best case, I end up horribly maimed; worst case I die of infection in a week or two. My opponent, however, is 100% irreparably dead. While I didn't exactly win, my opponent certainly lost.

In a dark alley -- I feel my knee shatter from the force of the 2X4 as my lead pipe caves in my opponent's skull. Injured, I opt for the escape; my opponent will bleed out on his own. Several surgeries later, I've regained %90 of my knee function. I call that a victory.

In a bar room -- I wince. My opponent reels, giving me the opportunity to snatch his cue away. If he continues to come at me, I have the weapon advantage. If he backs down, the fight's over. I am the victor

Conclusion: Recklessly entering krieg with a quick strike to the leg will get you a point in the Pit, but it's going to get your skull cracked open anywhere else.

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Hopefully, the above examples help everyone to understand that I'm not making excuses or sword-nerding when I talk about making changes to our system that benefit HEMA technique. I'm actually trying to promote that we train, and reward in tournament, techniques that I feel are more effective in a larger variety of combat situations, and thereby make us better able to whip ass (see my definition below).



Ok, so this is where things get hazy for me. How would you define "whipping ass?" Is it whipping ass in a bar fight? Whipping ass in the Ordo ring? Whipping ass on a theoretical medieval battlefield? Fending off an attacker in a dark alley and escaping with little harm?

For me, "whipping ass" is all of the above. So, I'm personally interested in learning how to do what is most effective in the majority of those situations.



I always thought we were trying to simulate a chance one-on-one meeting on the battlefield, in which case it's a contest of who doesn't get hit at all. As such, I feel like we should train techniques that do not leave us open to be struck. This includes keeping cover or controlling your opponent's weapon when punching or kicking (and granting points to a fighter that lands a weapon strike simultaneously with or within 1 second after a melee strike) and eliminating suicidal fighting. I feel that switching to a more "dangerous" weapon simulator will help to naturally dissipate these problems by increasing the desire to not get hit in the head.

In the end, a fighter's training reflects his goals as a fighter. If his goal is "to be able to whip ass in most situations," he's not going to train the same way he would if his goal is "to become the best fighter in the organization." I think that, as a group, we need to figure out what our goal actually is, whether it be one of the above or something else entirely, and then train accordingly.

So what I really want people to get from this unnecessarily long, incoherent rant is that I'm not just geeking out. I legitimately believe that HEMA is a superior weapon system that is more applicable to combat outside of the Pit, and I feel that we should adjust our equipment and rules to promote HEMA. As always, it is only my desire to improve the overall quality of the Ordo. And if we can increase our fighting skill AND gain some respect in the historical HEMA community, then I feel it's all the better.

With Respect,

Eric

** EDITED 6/10/10 for clarity

Very well put Sir Eric! I've been feeling like that for some time.

I have said also that punches and kicks should not be given a point, unless you are either ontop your opponent pounding away at his helmet, while he can do little against you, or you get kicked squarely in the head, enough to make you reel back violently. (Now that happens sometimes)

The techniques that HEMA utilizes are derived directly from the old-school medieval fight books. The books have been really scrutinized by many, many people, and very good translations are out now. I really don't think these techniques would have been taught back then, if they did not work. This was to save your life, period.

If an experienced HEMA student cannot block against a wild enemy, then either he is not a good fighter, or that his art is limited to the strikes from within the art (as pointed out before).

In my limited experience with some of these classical moves, I feel that they can easily defend against a wild man, or a similiar skilled man. Of course, if the rules are not life-death type rules, then who knows? It all depends on the rule set.

Sir Eric, you are still a nerd.

I reread this a second ago and finally understood what you were asking so I wanted to address it:


He gets a mean bruise. And I'll laugh at him if he whines about it. Taking a hard shot to the ribs doesn't have the potential to instantaneously alter the rest of your life like losing an eye or badly breaking a hand does. And in any case, he's free to wear as much or as little gear as he likes. If he doesn't want to get hit in the short ribs and chose not to protect them, maybe he needs to reevaluate his decision making skills.


Just as much as all the rest of you guys

All good points.
-D

I just thought I'd bump this one back to the top.

Interesting points. and to say the least when i first started fighting, I would swing with alot of force. but after breaking 2 weapons, I relised that may not have been necessary. I began to start to focus on control. and from then till now. I beleived I've gained alot of control. and continue to practice in a way that developes my control.